What would you think of me if I made my argument in favor of a Canadian-style health care system like this?
I bet the American one who slipped across the border and pretended to be Canadian because he couldn't afford to see a doctor would rather be covered by Canadian health insurance.
And I'm pretty sure the other guy I know who put off going to the hospital because he couldn't afford it and then died would rather have had Canadian health insurance as well.
While American health care means you can have a $100,000 thermonuclear powered ass scan if you can afford it, these anecdotal examples that I haven't shown I didn't pull out of my ass show that American health care does, in fact suck.
If I said something like that you'd more than likely think I was an idiot, and you'd more than likely be right. Keep that in mind as you read this comment:
I'm pretty sure the Canadian one who's family remortgaged their home to keep him is a US ICU instead of a Canadian one would have preferred my $50 co-pay. I'm also pretty sure the guy I know who bought an insulin pump out of his own pocket would have preferred my $10 co-pay.
While Canadian health care means anyone who needs to be in a hospital gets to be in a hospital, it does in fact, suck.
Now I'm not saying the commenter is an idiot, just that they framed their argument the same way an idiot would. That's all.
Thing is, that was the best comment I got after I posted how a majority of American doctors now support a national health care system. I also got a smattering of worn-out right wing dittohead doctrine and someone who said they read a story once about a guy with a brain tumor. Not the actual story mind you, just a comment that a story was once read. Interestingly enough, no one who wrote me to trash the Canadian health care system was an actual Canadian. It would seem the only evidence Americans can come up with to defend our for-profit health care is anecdotal.
Would you like to see some real evidence instead?
Canadians live longer than Americans.
Canadians spend just over half of what Americans do for health care on a per person basis.
That means tomorrow we could cover everyone, throw in an extra $700 per person every year for mad money, and still spend 30% less on health care than we spend today. Thirty percent off the nation's health care bill would be like fighting the war in Iraq for free. Twice. And you'd still have that extra $700 per person every year to go towards things like thurmonuclear ass scans.
No wonder people who disagree with me sound like idiots. They don't have another alternative.
Wake up and realize you're getting ripped off.
28 comments:
Yes! I got mentioned in a blog~~ but not as an alert reader... :(
I can't find the story about the brain tumor because I read it in ethics class last year and no longer have access to the link. I am for a universal system, however, the increased wait times and the possibility of not being able to get timely treatment or treatment at all unless the govt okays it, is just a little scary. I like Obama's plan.
I personally should have gone to the emergency room when I had a bad staph infection in my nose during pharmacy school. The doctor told me to go to the ER if the pain got worse, swelling got worse, or if I got a fever. All three of those happened and it wasn't looking great, but I had absolute shit insurance cause I was too old for my parent's insurance, but still in school. Luckily by the next morning the dicloxicillin and clindamycin had kicked in and I didn't die, but man... I shouldn't have to be afraid of getting medical treatment especially when my life could be at risk.
Thanks for commenting on my comment, and for not out-right calling me an idiot. Your challenge was to be able to find someone who would trade their Canadian healthcare for whatever card I have in my wallet. That's what I did.
If someone is going to die rather than go to a hospital because they're worried about money, that person is at the very least mis-informed in my opinion. I treat patients daily who have no means of ever paying, and they certainly aren't worried about the cost. And why should they be? The hospital will have their social worker help them apply for whatever is out there, then should that fail, the hospital will take on the cost themselves.
Not ideal- but I mentioned that in my original comment, no?
Oh, and while not a real-live Canadian myself, I have been treated in a Canadian hospital before. I live on the border, and my family owns a vacation home in Canada where we've run into a few mishaps. Have you ever been a part of the Canadian health care system?
@ Christine,
I see. So the fact I went to an American hospital once, and it was a bad experience, is proof that the American health care system sucks. Thanks for clearing that up.
Still waiting for the definition of "anecdotal evidence" to sink in......
Sigh.
I'm a Canadian pharmacist and while our system isn't anywhere near perfect, I wouldn't trade ours for the US version. Having to buy travel insurance for when we head south of the border is always a wake-up call for how lucky we are to have universal health care.
Sorry...even though I'm slightly angrier than the Angry Pharmacist (but less so than the Angriest Pharmacist) I still can't bash our health care system too much. My job at Big Box Store is another story however...stupidity knows no borders.
Regarding antpharm's comment, Canadians having to buy travel health insurance when they come to the US is like US drivers having to purchase Mexican auto insurance when we head into México. In both cases, it shows a real disparity between an evolved insurance system and a more primitive one.
As far as I am aware, the United States is the only industrialized nation without a public health care system. Yet, the life expectancy of Americans is lower than almost 4 dozen other countries. What gives?
DrugMonkey, you have a no-nonsense approach of explaining things to the walks-like-an-idiot, reasons-like-a-idiot but-not-an-idiot idiots out there. More not-idiots need to listen to you. ;)
I never understood the whole Moore-onian"universal coverage is good because when I'm in the US my Canadian health plan doesn't cover me."
Guess what. When I was in Canada and got injured- we saw a bill! Several times, actually. So your socialized medical system doesn't cover outsiders, why should the US?
However, luckily my US health insurance does cover me on a trip, so that bill was taken care of for me.
I almost passed up this post because I thought it was yet another bash the Canadian health care system rant. Pleased to see it was a call for a proper discusion.
I am a Canadian, and one who, had it not been for our system, would have been too sick to work for the last 15 years. When I became ill and needed an operation, I simply had it - no fuss and yes a moderate wait. I'm not paying for the hospitalisation now, I'm not crushed by debts because I was desperate to have my health fixed. I work and contribute to society because I am healthy, not languishing in a half state feeling too rotten to care.
Our system has problems... mostly with beaurcratic gits that don't think - but that's a seperate rant isn't it? Yes we have some very serious problems up here, but on the whole, it is a good system that offers everyone an equal chance at preemptive health care as well as emergency care. That's why Canadians tend to be very touchy when the subject of moving to a US styled healthcare system comes up.
Thanks for the platform.Thanks for the reasonable discussion.
christine,
Your story scares me. You think a system where hospitals are stuck with the bill for people who can't pay is better than a system where everybody is covered. You also say you "treat patients." I am horrified that a health care employee could be so clueless as to the plight of our health care system.
This can't-pay situation causes hospitals to grossly overcharge patients who can pay, which is why our medical costs are spiraling out of control, which is the reason for this whole debate about restructuring our medical system. Doctors are turning away medicare and medicaid patients because the reimbursement is too low TODAY. Under the current system, we can't afford to cover the eligible retirees under medicare when all the boomers quit working.
Our ship is sinking around us and you people are quibbling about hospital wait times. We need something drastic or there won't be a ship at all.
A comment to above, Christine-Megan, Those social workers that help those folks that don't have insurance find a way to pay, don't always find those ways. And often these blue-collar self-employed or small business owners that end up in these predicaments will end up with huge medical costs due, with no way to ever pay an amount that is close to what the value of their home is.
I am marrying one such self-employed beau who just so happens to have a congenital ureter defect. He has around 50 grand in hospital bills, and no follow up care allowed or offered at any hospital or clinic because of his lack of health insurance. The most common treatment is surgery, and they won't do that if you don't have insurance (and don't qualify for any public plans.)
What are his options? Continue to let his condition deteriorate until such time he is forced to become disabled and then qualifies for some sort of public plan. (Lose his livelihood and his capabilities to support his family?) Or, perhaps he can purchase health insurance for himself? Yes, and pay thousands of dollars per month on a health insurance plan that will not cover his most pressing problem for at least a year. Fabulous system we have here. And the people it is hurting the most is our working and middle class, and our entrepreneurs. The for-profit trash of a health care system is systematically stealing the American dream (that is, stealing it unless you are wealthy or some corporate guru....)
I paid 26% percent of my income on health care last year(and I am insured!?), and should you look to my blog you will see that now I am close to 30% this year. Is this equitable? Is this accessible? Is this moral or appropriate?
To answer these questions:
No.No. & No.
I would be all for universal healthcare if someone could show me that our government is capable of setting it up and running it efficiently. I dont know if they are capable...
I see Medicaid on a daily basis paying for Adderall, Singulair, and other garbage that is a waste of money. Medicaid is the most inefficient insurance we get on a daily basis BY FAR! More government involvement is going to cure it? On the other end, private insurance is TOO conservative.
I think our system is horrible. I have GERD and my insurance wont pay for one single goddamn PPI! NOT ONE! Im going to end up dying from esophageal cancer one day Im sure. Well, I shell out the cash for my prilosec, while others get their snotty-nose $150 antihistamines for free that I'm paying for.
Thats my favorite part of life. I work to pay for someones bullshit, nonnecessary $150 medication. Meanwhile I have to get my fucking feeding tube operated on before i choke to death and my goddamn private insurance wont pay $30 for my prilosec.
My internet is acting strangely, so I don't know if this got through last night and is simply waiting in queue for approval, or if it didn't get through. So I'm reposting. My apologies if this came through twice.
Yes, I'm providing anecdotal evidence, but that's exactly what you asked for, no? The fact that I've been to a Canadian hospital (and more than once, by the way), at all, makes me more experienced than you are, having never been a part of it at all. And no, I never said anything about it being a bad experience. I'm just wondering how you can possibly know what Canadians think, never having been a part of their system.
To the Canadian Pharmacist commenter: for my ER trips to Canada, I received a bill. Several, actually. Michael Moore would like you to think that even foreigners do not get billed in the wonders of socialized medicine. But that's not true. However, I didn't need travel insurance to go to Canada. Why? Because my regular insurance covers travel injuries in other countries. I guess your socialized system doesn't- I take it?
DrugMonkey- I hope you don't think someone is an idiot simply for disagreeing with you.
I'd love The Answer to be that simple, but I fear it may not be.
@ anonymous,
Medi-cal patients where I live have their Prilosec OTC covered.
You would be much better off if you were eligible for Medicare, No?
Yet you still buy into the right wing government can't do anything correctly propaganda as you continue to guzzle your Maalox.
The government does what we want it to. We've decided we want the government to give us the most fearsome army on the planet. Guess what we have?
If we decided we wanted the world's most kick-ass department of agriculture, and demanded it from our public officials, guess what we would have?
Same way if we demanded the world's best health care system.
@christine,
You're not an idiot, but neither do I think you're a candidate for mensa.
Your main problem seems to be comprehension of the entirety of what you've read.
I drown you in actual, verifiable facts and your refutation of the ocean of actual, verifiable facts comes down to the fact you got a bill when you went across the border.
I know the right wing in us loves to argue from the gut and therefore doesn't do lists of facts well. I'm used to having the factual parts of my posts being ignored, but you also ignored the part where I pointed out that there's no way to know your "Canadians" weren't pulled out of your ass.
The line was meant to get people to think how Canadians are not clamoring to replace their healthcare system, which....don't you think they would be doing if it were as bad as the right wing propaganda machine in this country said it was?
But I know how my friends to the right of me think....so if it comes down to me having never been sick in Canada. I will reveal a trump card in the battle of anecdotes
There. I win in worlds both factual and anecdotal
The government does what WE want it to, or what money wants it to do? It is all corrupted.
@ anonymous,
It usually does what the money wants it to do, because most of the time the moneyed interests are the only ones paying attention.
When you say "the government can't"...you're playing right into their hands.
Every time someone brings up waiting lists I have to laugh. Here in the US with the Blue Cross and Blue Shield HMO, it takes my wife 5 weeks to get an appointment to see a specialist. I have spent over 4 hours in the ER here in Chicago. These things happen in all health care settings. Sometimes, there are simply too many patients.
On the other hand, I would much prefer to see a more progressive system than Canada. France has what amounts to a national PPO. It's more expensive, but has no waiting times. They also have extra support for the poor, and reimbursement for drugs ranges from almost none (Viagra) to 100% for necessary medication. It seems like the best solution is to have national health care with an option. We should all be able to select either an HMO (read: managed care) style plan with low co-pays or a PPO, with fixed reimbursement for different procedures. Yes, it means that wealthy people would have more options that poorer people, but it would at least cover everyone at a basic level. It would also undercut the HMO-sponsored right wing noise machine's waiting list/socialist medicine paranoia.
I think that one problem some have with the Canadian health care system is that it's "govenment run medicine" or "socialized medicine" or such. We have plenty of "government run medicine" or "socialized medicine" here in the US & it works pretty well for those who get it (Medicare/Medicaid recipients) but not for those of us who pay for it & don't receive it.
@christine-megan,
No, our universal health coverage does not extend to out of country doctor/hospital visits. Your private insurance obviously does, so good for you.
I'm still a little unclear why you are complaining about receiving a bill for using Canadian health services. Do you pay 35% (or more) of your salary in taxes to the Canadian government? No? Then why would you expect the Canadian government to pay for your medical expenses?
As I said before, our system isn't perfect. We have to pay to see optometrists, dentists, and chiropractors. And prescription meds aren't covered until you reach 65 years (at least in my province). or qualify for Social Services.
Thanks for the fantastic site and forum Drugmonkey. You're an inspiration to the children!
I have to say I am not against universal healthcare. I hate my insurance and I hate watching medicaid too. Both upset me.
I also hate watching the pharmaceutical industry and their unfair patent laws that are (i assume) the root of most of the high costs of healthcare, along with their budgets that are too heavily interested in "me too" drugs and advertising to consumers. From what I hear only 30% of drugs introduced to market are 'new'
Universal healthcare is scary for me though, because all the pigs will come to the feeding trough of the government teat. Probably not much unlike now.
I cant say I'd be upset if it were taken over by the government, but it wouldnt shock me if it turned out a huge disaster also.
Somehow I think a large percentage of our problems would e resolved by some reform in the pharma industry.
the drugmonkey breaks into song....
I believe that children are our future/Teach them well and let them lead the way....
Whitney Houston was hot back in the day....
um...what were we talking about?
i'm jumping in on the blog-commenting for this post only 'cause it's such a happening place and i like to be part of the in-crowd.
i like canada because their cops are called "mounties". (insert beavis and butthead snicker: huh huh she said mounties huh huh.)
Great article (the 'trump card') that you linked to in the comments!
I'm a Canadian pharmacist. I wouldn't trade our health care system for anything. Not everyone has to wait for an MRI - if it's urgent you'll get it same day. If it's not urgent then you will wait. Sure some wait times are longer than ideal, but this is being addressed by each province for how to improve it.
Each province does offer different supplementary health care for low income families - so prescription drugs, vision, dental, etc are covered for those who really can't afford it. For the working class there is affordable coverage, even through a provincially run group.
But NO ONE is afraid to go to the hospital or the doctor because they're worried that the bill will bankrupt them!
I know that anecdotes don't even count as a level of evidence, but here you go:
At 4 months old my child needed an MRI: wait time - less than 2 weeks. If the doctor had really been concerned, it would have been within 24 hours.
Cost to us: $0
At 2 years old we took our child to the hospital and she was diagnosed with appendicitis. Total of 1 week in the hospital, surgery (which happened within 20 minutes of them deciding to do it), and better nursing care than I thought possible during our stay.
Total hospital cost: $0
Total cost of discharge prescriptions: $0 - covered through employer's supplementary insurance. But would have been inexpensive anyways.
All this and NO monthly premiums in most provinces.
Tell me if there is really ANY American insurance that is better than that?
Hi,
I haven't commented before, though I have been a reader for, well... quite some time. I never felt that I had anything much to add. But perhaps here I can.
I am a Canadian currently living in the US while going to school. I am also pre-med. So yes, people ask me all the time about which I think is better.
To clear some things up--
First, Christine, foreigners are not covered for health care in Canada because they do not pay taxes in Canada. Strange but true.
Second, my provincial health plan does cover some things while I am in the states-- usually about a half of the cost of a visit, etc. The remainder is covered by travel insurance that I buy every semester, which is cheaper and much better (more things covered) than my university's recommended and otherwise compulsory health insurance.
IMHO, each system has some strengths and weaknesses.
Canada = get the care you need, though there might be a bit of a wait for it. Fear of debt does not prevent someone from getting healthcare. Cons? Of course, the wait times, which in my experience are greatly exaggerated. You always hear about someone put on a waiting list, but never about someone who gets the scan that same day, or the surgery booked the next week. And there are some people who abuse the system, but I don't see it as a big problem.
US = get the care you need, as long as you have the money. You'll probably get in quickly (my experience in referrals, etc had been good).
Cons? The lack of money prevents people from seeking proper care. Sometimes a healthcare decision is based on what is covered, not on what is best for the patient. Which I think is completely backwards of the point of healthcare... but I digress. I've also noticed (and yes, this is anecdotal) that people here tend to use a lot more home remedies and herbal crap because it's cheaper than going to the doctor.
Anyway, given my choice, I'd rather have the Canadian system. But maybe I'm just a socialist that way.
As more doctors opt out of treating Medicaid patients in Ohio my friend who is the same age as I am and has the same problems has to keep changing rheumatologists. She can only see him at most 1x every 4 months, no sooner. Her shoulder is killing her and she is cutting up OTC pain patches to get through the month with a little relief.
I live in Canada and I can ask my GP to refer me to any Rheumatologist in the country if I want to make my own choice rather than go to the Dr she suggests. So I chose the best one. Yes I had to wait but I was not without care in the interval.
My friend has a very small list of Drs she can chose to see. And she feels that she often is looked down on because of her lack of insurance.
She is on SSDI. I am still working full time and paying taxes
Anet
WHO ranks Canada at 30 and USA at 37 ranking by eight measures including health expenditure per capita and level of health; CNN reports that the "United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate in the developed world, according to a new report. "The United States has more neonatologists and neonatal intensive care beds per person than Australia, Canada and the United Kingdom, but its newborn rate is higher than any of those countries," said the annual State of the World's Mothers report." Reuters reports "France, Japan and Australia rated best and the United States worst in new rankings focusing on preventable deaths due to treatable conditions in 19 leading industrialized nations, researchers said on Tuesday." I think we would be wise to look at countries that are doing better and improve (including Canada) rather than deluding ourselves that the current system works.
Hi,
been reading your blog for a while DrugMonkey and even though I don't agree with all your views, I think your blog is great!
Onto Canadian health care, I read some comments saying that Canada has "socialized" medicine. I know DrugMonkey posted a link about this, but just wanted to reiterate...CANADIAN HEALTH CARE IS NOT SOCIALIZED!! It is a single-payer method (that payer being the respective province/territory) that gets its funds from the federal government. Hospitals are privately-owned (with Board of Governors) and doctor's offices are private.
Being from Canada, I don't understand the criticism that America should not have a system like Canada's because the government is "not mentally equipped" for it. In essence, the government's main responsibility is not running hospitals/physicians, it is getting the funds to where they need them. There are tighter regulations on things such as prescription drugs, but nothing that should pose too much of a problem.
Also, unfortunately DrugMonkey, if you want to see universal health care in the US it may take some time. Saskatchewan (not Canada) actually started the effort about 60 years ago with Tommy Douglas and our health care as we know it was not fully completed until 1984 (Canada Health Act). But keep the dream alive, hopefully it will happen one day.
I know this is an old post, but I've used a UHC system before as a tourist and wasn't charged a dime.
It was 2003 or 2004 and I was in France for the summer. My vent, which I took with me on the plane, ended up not working in France even though I purchased the proper electrical outlet adapters and tested it before I left.
When I arrived in Paris, jetlagged and wanting to sleep, the vent didn't work despite plugging it into multiple outlets.
Unfortunately, Paris was going through a bit of civil unrest and much of the public transit and hospital workers were on strike. I visited 2 or 3 hospitals that could do nothing for me, with one of the nurses saying they could put me on life support if it came down to it.
Finally, on the 3rd or fourth hospital, we found a doctor who'd see me. I saw some of the techs and nurses point at my vent and commenting on how old it was (it was, but it was smaller than my normal vent and that's why I travel with it). After waiting 30 minutes, they gave me a new vent and asked where we were departing from. They told me just to leave the vent at my last hotel in Niece and it'd be fine.
My mother and I tried handing them our insurance cards and they said no one would even know what to do with those.
The pros: Not having to pay a dime, even as a tourist.
The cons: Having to go to several different hospitals before getting to see a doctor.
I don't think this is reflective of a typical experience, and Paris has a habit for protesting over a lot. But it was my experience.
Post a Comment